Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Finally, after eight years, you know, had everything that we had dreamed of. Oh my God, we're together every day. And then that magical part of our relationship was fading and I couldn't understand it. I remember one time Peter saying to me when we were fighting, I just forgot, okay? And that made so much sense after diagnosis, but it made no sense before diagnosis, and it still felt like rejection.
[00:00:42] Speaker B: Hi everyone, it's Jake Johnson. On today's episode, we're talking about sex and dementia. We want to be straightforward about this topic both in our title and the content of the episode because this is heavily stigmatized in the dementia space.
Often when we dance around a topic, we end up only making that stigma stronger, which makes people less willing to talk about their experience and in turn feel more isolated.
On that note, today's episode is an interview with author, advocate and caregiver Lisa Marshall, director of social work at the Penn Memory Center. Alison Lin, who's been on the podcast a few times this season, sat down with Lisa to talk about her book oh hello, Alzheimer's A Caregiver's Journey of Love. You can find oh hello Alzheimer's on Amazon ebook or at your local bookstore. It's an honest and at times very vulnerable look at Lisa's journey as a caregiver. In one chapter, which will be the main focus of today's episode, Lisa talks about her sexual relationship with her husband Peter, who was eventually diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease.
I don't want to say too much about it other than I think you're really going to enjoy Lisa's unfiltered honesty both in her book and in this interview. I will let Alison take it away from there.
[00:02:05] Speaker C: I am very excited to welcome Lisa Marshall, who is an author, speaker and an advocate whose book oh hello, A Caregiver's Journey of Love details her experiences caring for her husband Peter, who was diagnosed with early onset Alzheimer's disease at the age of 53.
Peter died a little less than four years after receiving his diagnosis. In her book, Lisa partners her real life experiences with pearls of wisdom for other caregivers about maintaining their own self care, navigating through our complex healthcare system, and more.
Lisa and Peter have a remarkable love story, which we'll hear about in a bit.
But first, Lisa, I'm curious just to frame our conversation today, talking about sex and intimacy can be very vulnerable. And I'm curious what inspired you to dedicate a chapter of your book to this topic.
[00:02:56] Speaker A: Before I wrote the book, I started a blog on Facebook and the reason I started the blog was because I really wanted a witness to what was happening to Peter and me. Look at what's happening to us. This is horrific.
And so many people joined that community because it was a safe space and a place where they could feel supported and not alone. And I knew that this taboo topic about intimacy and sex, it had to be a topic where no one felt supported. And I knew that I wasn't alone in it. So that space, that Facebook blog space, people are always thankful and grateful for it as a community, but I am too, because it wasn't only a support for people going through what I was going through, it was a support for me.
And so I think part of writing that chapter in the book was, hey, this is what happened to me and this is how I handled it, right or wrong. And I'm sure that there are other people who have had these feelings and had these situations, and it's just my version of how I handled it to maybe, you know, cope and help Peter along and help to fill that void that was missing.
[00:04:15] Speaker C: When you first started dealing with this, did you seek out resources similar to the one that you ended up creating to answer questions that you might have had about sexuality and intimacy in the context of dementia?
[00:04:28] Speaker A: I really didn't because when I first started seeing signs of it, we didn't even have a diagnosis.
And it was early in our relationship we enjoyed, quote, unquote, an eight year long distance relationship before we got married. So it was just a few years after that that I started to notice things. You know, our sex life was always very mutual and both of us initiating when we were long distance, it was a honeymoon, of course. We'd see each other every 11 days and, you know, walk in the door and leave a trail of clothing the hallway to get to the bedroom. If we made it there, things started to change and I was the one who was initiating most of the playfulness. And so that sort of triggered something's going on here. But without a diagnosis or without even knowing that anything was wrong with Peter, it just really felt like rejection.
So there really wasn't anything to seek out other than conversations with friends and what's wrong and oh my gosh, is he cheating on me? He's not interested in me. I feel rejected. I feel as though he doesn't want me in that way anymore. And certainly in hindsight, I wish that I would have known then what I knew in the coming years because I would have handled it much more carefully.
[00:05:58] Speaker C: How do you think you would have handled it differently had you Known.
[00:06:01] Speaker A: Well, it was certainly, there was certainly a switch when I found out that Peter had Alzheimer's. And I remember distinctly after getting that diagnosis, I recalled one time when we were fighting about sex. It was truly the only thing we fought about because it was such a magical part of our relationship and it had begun to dwindle and I couldn't understand why. We had finally, after eight years, you know, had everything that we had dreamed of. Oh, my God, we're together every day. And then that magical part of our relationship was fading, and I couldn't understand it. I remember one time Peter saying to me, when we were fighting, I just forgot, okay?
And that made so much sense after diagnosis, but it made no sense before diagnosis, and it still felt like rejection.
So I would have handled it in a way that was more gentle and not like, what's wrong with me? Why don't you want me? You know, instead of, of being self centered, I would have focused on Peter, making sure that he was comfortable being gentle, being the initiator, and finding other ways to fill that emotional space that sex and intimacy give us.
[00:07:25] Speaker C: How did that change as he progressed further into his Alzheimer's disease? How did your sexual relationship change? How did your intimacy change, especially post diagnosis, once you knew what was really going on?
[00:07:38] Speaker A: Yeah, post diagnosis, he, you know, he was confused, but that part of our relationship was still very healthy and viable.
But one of the issues was that Peter was so exhausted when he got to bed that he had stopped initiating a long time before.
But he always rose to the occasion. You know, if I initiated, but he was exhausted and I needed. And I didn't understand before diagnosis why he was so exhausted.
Nothing else had changed in our lives. And why was he being, you know, why was he so tired? But after diagnosis, it was very clear that, oh my gosh, his brain is trying so hard to understand everything that's going around that it's just, it's taking so much energy to do that that he just would fall asleep literally 10 seconds after his head hit the pillow.
[00:08:33] Speaker C: And for you and your sort of emotional state, because I think it's very interesting to think about this sort of difference between intellectually understanding something and then your kind of emotional experience of it.
[00:08:45] Speaker D: Right.
[00:08:46] Speaker C: So it sounds like after he was diagnosed, intellectually you're able to say, this is not, he's not cheating on me. He hasn't lost interest. This is a result of the changes in his brain.
But emotionally, what was that like? Because we know that those two things don't always partner perfectly Together.
[00:09:03] Speaker A: Exactly. And it was a little hard at first.
No pun intended.
It was. But that intellectual piece comes in, and that nurturer really blossomed for me. I wanted to take care of him and make sure that he was comfortable as the dementia progressed.
So making love is not just a physical sexual act. There's so many ways that we can make love to each other as a. As a couple or even as human beings. You know, let's just being kind to each other. Holding hands, taking a walk, stroking someone's cheek, rubbing someone's hair, rubbing someone's back. Those are all ways that we can give and receive that same emotional peace that.
That making love brings us.
So I tried to find ways to fill that space in other ways when I felt that it was getting uncomfortable for Peter.
[00:10:06] Speaker C: That's so beautiful. I love the way you described that way to connect and find intimacy, even.
[00:10:12] Speaker D: Outside of sex or making love.
[00:10:14] Speaker C: I was really touched by a passage in your book, which I hope you're okay with me quoting here, where you describe picking Peter up from a respite stay in assisted living. So a short stay in assisted living.
[00:10:25] Speaker D: And you said.
[00:10:25] Speaker C: We both blinked back tears and held each other ever so gently, our hearts pounding together. Peter's entire body sighed with relief as we were reunited.
I just think this encapsulates this idea that you shared so perfectly. It makes me think of how our partner or spouse's body can feel like home to us. Touching them in any way, hugging them, holding hands. As you say, it doesn't necessarily have to mean sexual intercourse.
[00:10:50] Speaker A: That's right. And I think a lot of it is security. Right. And safety.
And as Peter had progressed, he was in an assisted living facility for two weeks while I took a respite. And he was very confused there.
The people were different, his surroundings were different, the food was different. Everything was different. And he was very, very confused.
And he thought I was gone. He thought I left him. He said to me on the way home, I thought I lost you.
And so that's heartbreaking.
But when I walked in the door, he. His whole body just melted into me, almost in slow motion.
And we both felt that. We both felt that reconnection.
And I missed him while I was gone for two weeks. Right. But I needed the rest.
But we just felt that.
That intimacy of making love with our clothes on, you know, and just loving each other so deeply and intimately. And there was. There's. There was no one in the room who could feel that but us.
[00:12:03] Speaker C: Really beautiful. I'm gonna go back a little Bit. When and how did you come to the decision that sexual intercourse was not part of your marriage anymore? That this phase or this era was finished?
[00:12:18] Speaker A: This was very emotional and surprising.
And as Peter declined, there were surprises, not only sexually, but all the time. So you constantly needed to be looking around the corner to see what was next, what was the next ability that he was going to lose, what was the next confusion that he was going to have. And this was one of those moments.
We had just had a beautiful sexual experience.
We were laughing and joking. Afterwards, I was straddling him on top. And finally I decided, okay, I need to scamper off to the bathroom. Everything seemed very normal.
When I returned from the bathroom, Peter was crying.
And I said, what's wrong? Oh my gosh, what's wrong? We just had this beautiful, intimate moment, and I wanted to just come right back into that.
Into that scene.
And he was crying, and I said, what's wrong?
And he said, I feel like I did something wrong.
Did I hurt you?
And it broke my heart. And I could cry. Now I'm literally holding back tears.
The tears just dumped out of my eyes. For this man to feel after experiencing something so beautiful that he would think that he had done something wrong. And he was fearful that he hurt me.
And so as much as I could explain to him, no, we are married. You have my permission. This was beautiful.
My words didn't matter.
He felt like something was wrong because of the confusion that he was experiencing.
And I was. From that point on, I was very concerned about that happening again. And so since I was the initiator of sex, I decided not to initiate moving forward.
[00:14:14] Speaker C: So in your book, you talk about this experience that you call the last time, which was sort of an engineered experience of the very last time that you made love. Can you tell us a little bit more about the impetus behind that decision, how it came to be, what that experience was like for you?
[00:14:31] Speaker A: Yeah, it was risky. It was a big move. But I decided that I didn't want that experience of Peter crying and being so scared to be my last memory of what had been a beautiful part of our relationship for years.
And so he was still cognitively able to travel a little bit, you know, not. Certainly not by air, but in a car. I could take him somewhere and we could. I felt confident that we could go away for a weekend together and have a good time.
And so a few things. I had switched Peter to non alcoholic beer. He really loved beer, but I had switched him to non alcoholic because it was. It would confuse him even further.
And I didn't. I wanted him to be safe.
But on this occasion, I decided to pick up some beer for him and some champagne for myself. And while he was drinking much less, I was drinking much more, trying to navigate, you know, the journey of dementia.
So I decided we were going to go to Portland, Maine, which is just a few hours away. And it was absolutely beautiful. It was in the thick of COVID so it was confusing. You know, masks for Peter were just very cumbersome, even more so than the rest of us.
And, you know, we drove to this wonderful inn that overlooked the water, big front lawn. The weather was chilly, but sunny on the first day. We had a wonderful day, you know, going out to dinner, visiting shops, and the next day was rain.
And we decided to spend the majority of the day in our room. I decided to spend the majority of the day in our room.
And so we cranked up the heat, popped a bottle of champagne. I gave Peter some beer, put on some swoony music, and.
And we climbed into bed, and he was tipsy, and we were giggling, and it was like old times, and he wasn't scared. And we made love and fell asleep, and it felt normal for the first time in a long time.
And so that was my memory that I got to hold onto.
He didn't seem cognitively impaired. He felt like my husband, and I felt like his wife, and I felt like his lover instead of his mother.
[00:17:16] Speaker C: It sounds like a really cherished memory and one that I'm imagining felt so good in the moment. But one thing that I also know from talking to a lot of family caregivers and spousal caregivers in particular, is sometimes when they have those moments where they feel like, oh, this is my husband again. This isn't Peter with Alzheimer's. This is the man I married and my partner.
That sometimes that can actually intensify grief afterwards when you don't have it anymore.
[00:17:47] Speaker D: What was it like for you to.
[00:17:48] Speaker C: Grieve the loss of that part of your marriage after that last time?
[00:17:55] Speaker A: It was emotional and it was taxing, and I did mourn it, but I knew that I. I knew for Peter's sake that I. I couldn't continue that part of our relationship. And as I mentioned, I just tried to find other ways to fill that.
That void of that emotional connection. And Peter. Peter loved me so much that he made it easy to fill that void. I knew how much he loved me. And he continued to show me that until the day he died. You know, he would stroke my Hair. He would hold my hand. He would hold me and caress my arm. So he was always making love to me, always.
And so while I did mourn it, I feel like it wasn't so sharp.
[00:18:49] Speaker C: You still had a piece of that connection in other ways.
[00:18:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, right? Yeah.
[00:18:54] Speaker C: That's really beautiful.
You make a point in your book of sort of allowing, quote, unquote, caregivers to say no to sex to their spouses. Why did you feel this was so important for you to emphasize?
[00:19:09] Speaker A: There's a couple of caveats here, right?
As caregivers, we are exhausted, too. When we fall into bed, we've been taking care of someone and we are exhausted. And while this was not my situation because Peter had stopped initiating, certainly there are couples who have partners who have dementia and still initiate and I'm tired and know is okay.
Additionally, it may not be that you're exhausted. It may be that you just aren't attracted and turned on in that way because you have turned into a mother instead of a wife and lover.
And it's just not. That spark may be gone for you.
And because there's a lot of things that decline, they are unable to feed themselves, they are unable to bathe themselves, and all of those hygiene aspects certainly aren't, you know, creating any sparks.
So, you know, give yourself grace in this area, and if you just don't feel like it, then don't, you know, I was blessed that Peter gave me a big sign with the day that he cried. And so it was an easy break for me.
I imagine for some people, that's not the case, and I would advise them to follow their heart and their instinct of how do you both feel?
How does the caregiver feel and how does your partner feel?
[00:20:39] Speaker C: What advice about sex and intimacy would you give to someone at the very beginning of their role of caregiver? For someone with Alzheimer's disease or a.
[00:20:47] Speaker A: Related dementia, I would say, give yourself grace, give your partner grace.
Let it be what it's going to be, and just start to find other ways to make love, because inevitably, that peace is going to dissipate.
And the more you can build up that connection and that bond in different ways, the less grieving you'll do about the sex, which is really intimacy.
So by replacing some of those physical things in an intimate way, you're not putting so much focus on the sexual, physical part.
[00:21:32] Speaker C: I think that's really good advice, not even just for sex and intimacy, but for caregiving in general, to remain flexible in figuring out ways to connect with this person and to be flexible in your approach to keeping them busy and engaged and involved in life. It's sort of a great metaphor to extend to a lot of aspects of caregiving.
[00:21:53] Speaker A: Right. It's. It's about joining their journey because they can't join ours.
[00:22:06] Speaker B: Wow. Thank you so much, Allison, for conducting such a great interview.
[00:22:10] Speaker E: When we're coming up with the schedule for the season and thinking about episode topics, I think that you were the first one to float this idea about sex and intimacy in relationship to dementia and caregivers. And I'm very happy that you brought it up, because I think this conversation was so fantastic and really interesting and not something that I would have thought about as being something to talk about, but after listening to it, it's so clear how important it is. So how did this first come up for you, and why did you think it was an important topic to go over?
[00:22:48] Speaker D: In my clinical work with patients and with caregivers, this topic comes up, but it comes up in a way that I can sense people's discomfort with bringing it up.
And it's often a little bit vague, a little bit generalized. People will say something like, well, I miss that part of my relationship, but there's so many other losses and so much else going on that that's not that important anymore. And, you know, I don't really want to focus on that. And it occurred to me that maybe there was something else going on, which was that people really wanted to talk about this, but they felt ashamed to talk about it, or they felt like they weren't allowed to talk about it, or maybe they thought it was strange to talk about it in the context of everything else going on.
But we know that older adults are having sex.
We know that many partners maintain intimacy throughout the duration of their marriage in some capacity.
And so I know that people are wondering about how other couples have managed this.
And I've never heard anyone talk about it so openly and bluntly before until I read Lisa's memoir or I read this chapter in her memoir. It's such an important aspect and component of so many people's relationships, and it's such a big loss that it seems like a glaring omission that we don't have more information about what this is like for people to navigate. If you Google sexuality and dementia, what comes up is a lot of scary information, in my opinion, more so than helpful information.
And that information kind of falls in a few camps. One is about sexuality and institutional settings.
So skilled nursing facilities or nursing homes, assisted living facilities, Memory care communities and all of the difficulties and controversies that surround that.
So should residents be, quote, unquote allowed to have sex with each other?
Should they not be allowed to, should staff intervene if they see this happening?
What policies do the institutions have?
What lawsuits have been filed against various institutions, or what grievances had been filed for complaints around residents engaging in insects? And there's a lot of chatter about that.
The other thing that you'll find a lot of if you Google it is a lot of talk about hypersexuality, which is a symptom of many diseases that cause dementia. And for many caregivers, it is a very troubling symptom, especially if they're no longer interested in being intimate with their spouse, or even if they are interested in being intimate with their spouse, but maybe not to the extent that their spouse is asking for and how to manage that hypersexuality. And that is very much something that I work on with caregivers frequently. For some reason, that's something that they feel more comfortable bringing up with me. I don't know if it's because they're shutting it down or it's out of the norm. It's not something that was normal as part of their partnership. And so it's very disease focused. And that's very real. And people are very distressed by that symptom. It makes it hard to go out in public and to socialize, especially with people they don't know. And I really feel for them. But if I were a family caregiver and I wanted to continue to have sex with my spouse, and I went on Google seeking guidance for how to do that in a safe and consensual and loving way, I would not be able to find much information at all, certainly not easily find much information at all. And the information that I would find would very much say something like, well, do what you feel comfortable with.
And for most other areas of caregiving, we give people more guidance than that.
And if we can't give them a one size fits all piece of guidance, we at least can share perspectives of other people who've been through this experience.
So people can listen to those perspectives and say, yeah, that kind of jives with what I think would work for me, or oh, no, no, no, that's not going to work for me. I'm going to do the opposite of what that person did. But there's at least some information out there to help people make informed decisions or decisions that feel good to them or that feel right to them. In the context of their unique relationship.
[00:27:30] Speaker E: I think that's what really stood out to me from this interview and listening to Lisa talk about her experience is that I think that sexuality is already such a taboo topic in general. I think it feels too personal. It feels embarrassing.
So it was. It felt very vulnerable and very brave to talk about this, especially as it's in relation to her husband's dementia and her decision making around that. And I could imagine that it's going to make people feel very seen, I hope, listening to and think about their own relationships and the complexities of it. I just thought it was really, like, powerful to. To hear that I was listening in on the interview and I was feeling very emotionally affected by it. And it's not an experience that I have any experience with, but just hearing it was very intense.
I was wondering how Lisa's experience compares to other people that you've talked to. Is the way that she went about it with kind of constructing that last time with her husband. Is that something you've heard before?
[00:28:39] Speaker D: I've never heard that before in that much detail.
I've heard some version from caregivers that I've worked with over the years of this was when I stopped being intimate with my spouse. But I've never heard such a kind of purposeful, specific plan around creating that beautiful memory that she was able to create with her husband.
And I was getting emotional listening to the interview as well. Because, truthfully, in almost a decade of doing this work and in seeing patients and caregivers for therapy, I've never had someone talk to me in this level of detail before about their feelings, about their sexual relationship with their spouse.
It comes up all the time. People will say, I miss that. I miss that kind of intimacy that I had with my partner. It makes me really sad that we don't have that type of relationship anymore or that part of our relationship ended, you know, 10 or 15 years ago.
But to really get into the nitty gritty of navigating, that is not something that anyone has shared with me again in that level of detail.
And people share some really, really intimate, vulnerable, painful things with me.
So it does seem to kind of be the last taboo at times. I've wondered if that's because I'm often much younger than the clients I'm working with, and maybe they think it would be weird to talk about this with, you know, someone in their. In their mid to late 30s, when they're in their 70s and 80s. Maybe they're just worried that it's inappropriate to talk about this with me at all.
I'm not sure what exactly. It is probably a combination of all of those things.
I will say also, like, it is so profound when someone opens up like that. It's so generous, too, to be the first person to do something or to say something and to be willing to share with such a wide audience. It's incredible. Like, I hope everyone is kind of awed by that act that.
That she gave us.
[00:30:54] Speaker E: Yeah, yeah. And the fact that there's no right or wrong way of. Of going about that situation. I think it's very, as I said before, like, very vulnerable, but I think really helpful for a lot of people. So, yeah, I'm really glad that we did this one and that Lisa was willing to come on and talk about it with us, because I think it turned out really fantastic. And thank you so much for conducting such a great interview. I really enjoyed it. It was, you know, there was. There's some light moments in there, but it's also very professional and serious and very honest. So I'm really excited for this one and for people to hear it.
[00:31:40] Speaker D: Yeah. Thanks, Jake. I feel really proud of this one, too. And I think that is very much a reflection of how we, as a social work team, try to work with patients and clients is. We are talking about really serious themes, really painful themes, and we want to honor that. But we also want to leave space for levity and for humor and for beauty.
And so we're always seeking to find a balance between those. Those two extremes. So thank you for giving me the opportunity to do this. It was really cool.
[00:32:16] Speaker B: Let's transition now to the beautiful question.
Last week we asked, what is something you could teach someone?
And this will feature our last group of answers from our thank you lunch back in May. And it's a great one to end on. There's a lot of great elder wisdom.
[00:32:32] Speaker E: In this batch that I hope you guys enjoy.
[00:32:36] Speaker F: My name is Helen Blackman. Something I would like to teach another person is that moving forward in life is a blessing and you never want to backtrack.
Whatever we experience, it was an experience, and we're moving forward, and we're here now. My name is Michelle Davis, and what I would like to say is, you know, as we age and change and we kind of have to make light of some of the ups and downs that occur, sometimes even on a daily basis or moment to moment, and just kind of take them in stride. You know that last year we were used to the parking here, and this year, having to figure out where to park. And, you know, you figure it out, it works itself out. And I would say that is just part of growing up in life. And that was my two cents. Make light of the changes as we are aging.
Gwendolyn Travis.
And my answer, what is something you could teach another person?
Laugh, laugh, laugh.
[00:33:42] Speaker E: Love, love, love.
[00:33:43] Speaker A: There you are.
[00:33:45] Speaker G: And you'll live in a joyful way.
[00:33:48] Speaker F: Ernestine Clark. Try to live every day in peace and quiet.
Think before you go anything.
[00:34:01] Speaker G: Joe Reed is my name. Tying knots for use on the water with boats and ships and everything. I was in the Coast Guard, but I have my own boat and everything else. So there's some guys that can tie knots you wouldn't believe. And very intricate. Some people are very impressive. I wasn't one of them.
[00:34:20] Speaker F: Grace Reed. And I am the caregiver here. But I think the most important thing that we could share and teach with people is you have to make light of going through this process and sometimes laugh at yourself.
The laughter helps you get through some really difficult times.
So that's my piece of advice.
[00:34:40] Speaker G: My name is Alan Davis with two L's and an E. If I have something to say, I would like to talk to some of the younger people and what I would tell them.
You gotta respect people who are older than you. You can learn so much. You know, sometimes the young people think you know everything, but there's so much to learn.
And the greatest way to learn it is to listen to people who are seniors who are older than you. And it's so special.
So you stop, you look, and you listen to your elders. Thank you very much.
My name is Diane Walker. My biggest thing I hope I could teach him is that it's a one day at a time situation and you don't have to worry about getting it right. You just have to worry about getting through. Because yesterday was one of the best days that you ever had. Today we're still exploring, and that's the way I'm looking at this.
So in another 20 years, hopefully I'll have the same attitude.
[00:35:48] Speaker E: So this week's beautiful question is, what is a place with special meaning for you?
One that immediately comes up is that I've been going to one vacation place in the summer since I was about three years old. We were invited by another family. I think, like another family fell through and we, like, were invited as a third family. And then we just started going all on our own. So it's Fire island off the coast of Long island, and we go every year. It was first with our friends. And then we started renting a house with some family members, and now it's basically my whole dad's side of the family. Comes out for once a week in July, and we just kind of hang out at the beach for a week, and it's very magical place for me in that way. I only go there once a year at this very specific kind of year, and I've been going since I was a little kid, and I have all of these memories associated with it. You have to take a boat to get there, and there's no cars, so you're kind of walking around everywhere, and you walk to town and walk to the beach, and, you know, I just associate it with hanging out with my family and playing games and getting ice cream, and it's very summery to me, so it's a very special place to me. Yeah.
[00:37:04] Speaker B: What's a place with a special meaning for you, Allison?
[00:37:07] Speaker D: So I, too, grew up going to the beach with my family. My grandparents had a condo in Ocean City, Maryland, and so we went for a lot of the summer every year. But as an adult, I started taking myself to upstate New York, specifically to the Woodstock area.
It just sort of started on a whim, and then it became a tradition, and. And it was important to me because the first few times I went, I went on my own, and that felt really exciting and important to travel on my own. And then I got my dog, and I started traveling with my dog, and then I met my husband, and I started traveling up there with my husband.
And now we're about to take our baby there for the first time this summer. And so every time I've gone, I've rented a cabin in a little bit of a different neighborhood. But I tend to go to all the same restaurants and all the same little used bookstores and all the same hikes.
And it just feels really cool that I invented a little tradition for myself that's definitely breaking with the tradition of my family. That's something that I can now pass down to my nuclear family.
[00:38:18] Speaker E: That's so, so cute. I love Woodstock. It's such a cute town.
[00:38:22] Speaker D: It's awesome. I'm obsessed.
[00:38:26] Speaker E: So if you want to answer that.
[00:38:27] Speaker B: Question, please call 571-449-6474. This is the last beautiful question of the season, so if you haven't called in yet or you've been wanting to call in again, please do. We have loved hearing all of your voices this season.
The question is, what is a place with special meaning to you? And the number is 571-449-6474 thanks everyone.
[00:38:59] Speaker E: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Age of Aging. The Age of Aging podcast is supported by the Penn Memory center, the University of Pennsylvania Alzheimer's Disease Research center, the Institute on Aging, and the Penn FTD Center.
Contributors include myself and Terence Casey, as well as Nicolette Calcavecchia, Dalia El Said, Jason Carlewish, Emily Largent, and Megan Sharp. More information on the stories you heard today can be found in our Show Notes and on our website, penmemorycenter.org.
