Sprechstimme

[00:00:20] Speaker A: Welcome to the Age of Aging, a show about living well with an aging brain. Produced by the Penn Memory center and the Michael Nadoff communications Hu. I'm Terence Casey. I'm here today with executive producer Jason Karlewish. And Jason, you asked that we play that song to start the episode, but I wasn't familiar with it. Could you tell me what we're listening to? [00:00:43] Speaker B: Yes. That was Lucy Shelton. She's performing Franz Schubert's shepherd on the Rock. [00:00:48] Speaker A: I really enjoyed it, thanks. Why did you suggest that we listen to that today? [00:00:53] Speaker B: Yes. Well, it is not the new theme song for the age of aging though perhaps I wish it was. Lucy Shelton is a very special person and I had the opportunity to have a conversation with her. [00:01:02] Speaker A: Great. And we don't talked to a lot of singers on the age of aging. What was appealing about her specifically? [00:01:07] Speaker B: She just made her mid opera debut at the age of 82. [00:01:11] Speaker A: That's amazing. [00:01:12] Speaker B: Yeah. Performing the role of the teacher in Kaija Sariaho's opera Innocence. [00:01:18] Speaker A: Great. And tell me more about it. How's that been received? [00:01:20] Speaker B: Well, it's a hit. Yeah. No. In the Wall Street Journal, Heidi Wilson's review gave it a glowing review. She described Innocence as one of the most important new operas of the century. And she specifically noted Shelton's artistry. She cited Shelton's talent to use her singing V to convey the inner mental state of the of the teacher. Innocence is a difficult opera. It is an opera about a school shooting. Yeah. But the voice that Shelton uses is itself notable. And you'll learn more about that in my conversation with her when she explains this mode of singing called Shrek Stimme. So Lucy Shelton is an accomplished, award winning and lifelong artist. [00:01:59] Speaker A: And so what made you want to interview her? [00:02:01] Speaker B: Well, you know, this is the age of aging. And I learned about Lucy over dinner in a conversation with my friends and opera mentors, Alan and Judy. And they've known her for years, going back to school age when Judy and Lucy attended the Putney School together. And what impressed me straight away when Alan and Judy were telling me about Lucy is, well, frankly her resilience. You know, singing, particularly professional singing, is like a sport. Over time, aging does start to take over and retirement kind of necessarily ensues, especially for a woman. And so when I heard that there's an 82 year old singer who is about ready to make a Met opera debut and still quite active in her field, I decided then and there that I have to talk with her. I really want to learn her story. [00:02:43] Speaker A: Yeah. And you know, like an athlete performing late in their. In their prime. I want to know how she manages to continue success. [00:02:51] Speaker B: Exactly. We talked about that and it's a fascinating conversation that we had. [00:02:55] Speaker A: Well, I'm really looking forward to that whole conversation. But first, let's take a break for a word from our sponsor. [00:03:00] Speaker B: Caring for an aging loved one isn't easy, but you don't have to do it alone. At Rothkoff Law Group, we guide families throughout New Jersey and Pennsylvania along every stage of your aging journey. Our team of elder care attorneys, care coordinators, public benefit specialists, and elder care advocates ensure your loved one's well being and your peace of mind. Rothkoff Law Group, your partner in elder care advocacy and senior care planning every step of the way. Visit rothkofflaw.com for more information. That's R O-T-H-K-O-F-F L A W.com [00:03:38] Speaker C: what if medicine could go beyond treating disease and actually rewrite it? Join the Franklin Institute on Tuesday, April 28 for a live conversation lab exploring how gene therapies are transforming medicine and improving lives. Featuring 2026 Franklin Institute Awards honoree and gene editing pioneer, Dr. David Liu, this interactive discussion takes you inside how these treatments evolve from bench to bedside use. Code Convolab26 for 50% off. Ticketsfi. Edu [00:04:17] Speaker B: well, greetings, Lucy. It is so good to see you and reet once again. Tell me, where are you at right now? [00:04:24] Speaker C: I am in my wee little apartment in New York City, 86th and West End. I've been in this apartment since 1969. [00:04:37] Speaker B: Well, we'll talk about time. It certainly features in the story. You're in your place in New York City, which right now is also where you're working. You're just wrapped up a premiere last night. Was that the case? [00:04:48] Speaker C: Last night was the premiere. We have six more performances. But the Metropolitan Opera premiere of a magnificent opera by Finnish composer Kaya Sariaho, she passed away, unfortunately. The opera is called Innocence and it's about a school shooting. And I play the role of the teacher. Yes, it's an international school and I've got six. I've got. There are nine languages that are used in the opera. I'm the only one who sings just in English. [00:05:22] Speaker B: And this is your Met premiere. [00:05:24] Speaker C: This is my debut. [00:05:26] Speaker B: Congratulations. That's a kind of a huge event in a career. And we're going to talk about that career because it has been a long and illustrious career as a singer. Yes, and I say singer because I remember you corrected me very Closely. That you are a singer, not an opera singer. Is that right? [00:05:42] Speaker C: Yes. I mean, well, opera singers are also singers, but. But I definitely cannot be called an opera singer, even after my debut last year. [00:05:51] Speaker B: Yeah, the Met Opera. [00:05:52] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:05:53] Speaker B: Because standards are dropping at the Met Opera. I joke. [00:05:56] Speaker C: Oh, that's what's happening. [00:05:58] Speaker B: So let me set that aside. So you've been busy. What else are you working on? [00:06:03] Speaker C: Well, oh, yeah, I actually. In May, I have a premiere of a piece with a string quartet written by Stephen Mackey, which will be for the Naumburg foundation, their hundredth year gala celebration. The Naumburg foundation supports musicians, has and has been doing that for 100 years. I won it as a singer with. I had a trio with flute and harp and soprano called the Jubal Trio, and we won it in 77, I think. And then in 1980, I won as a vocalist. [00:06:41] Speaker B: Brilliant. And before Innocence, what were you working on? Before you were doing Innocence, what were you working on? What was your last project? [00:06:47] Speaker C: It was probably. No, I've actually. I mean, it's amazing that I'm as busy as I am. In October, I had a faculty recital at Manhattan School of Music, where I did the Schoenberg Pierrot Lunaire, which is kind of a specially specialty piece that uses a kind of singing between singing and talking, which is actually what I'm asked to do in the opera Innocence. [00:07:14] Speaker B: Yeah, the Sprechte Method. And we're going to talk about that because I think it's very relevant to how you've been sustaining your career as a singer. [00:07:22] Speaker C: That's right, Jason. [00:07:23] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So. But I think you already. You took the words out of my mouth. It's safe to say that you're pretty busy. [00:07:30] Speaker C: Yes. Yes. And I. Yes, because I did a. One of my favorite burial pieces, Sequenza, in February, I went to Kansas University and did a Pierrot with students there. At the beginning of February, I was in England to performances of the Piero Lunaire in England, along with some unaccompanied works. And I am. [00:07:56] Speaker B: Yes, you are. And listeners should go to your website. Very active, updated website, by the way, where they can learn about, quote, just how busy you are. [00:08:06] Speaker C: I have to say it's only recently been updated. It was dormant from 2020 until last fall. There was nothing. [00:08:15] Speaker B: Websites are like diaries. You pick them up and put them down. But maybe it's time we put a fact on the table. We chatted about this, but. But how old are you? [00:08:25] Speaker C: I am 82. [00:08:27] Speaker B: A Kronos. 82, as we say, because I think what we're. What I think you and I have been chatting about, and I think what I'd like to talk about for our listeners is your career as a singer. Because I think when we think about singers as one among a variety of artistic media, dance, painting, drawing, writing, singing. Singers are like dancers in a cadre of artists who face a decision which is, I think I need to retire. And typically it's midlife, because it's a very physical art medium. You know, now you're talking to someone and the listeners know this, that I recently took up dance, but I'm pathetic and will never be a professional dancer. You are a professional singer, and you're way beyond the age of retirement, and you haven't done that. And I think we'll talk about why. But before we do, let's go to the beginning and how you got started as a singer. [00:09:22] Speaker C: Well, it was kind of a. It was a very practical choice. I mean, that sounds like a weird way to go about it. [00:09:30] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. There are many parents that would blanch if they heard that. Yeah, but I. Law, medicine, practicals. [00:09:37] Speaker C: Yeah. I grew up in a very musical family. My parents had actually met at a music. Amateur music thing in Massachusetts. And I'm one of five kids. And we were all given or we had no choice, but, I mean, I wanted to follow after my three. I'm the fourth out of five. We all took piano lessons with an absolutely extraordinary teacher who lived half a block away. And I would go for my lessons before breakfast. [00:10:08] Speaker B: This is growing up in California. [00:10:10] Speaker C: This is in Claremont, California. Yes. And we all also took an instrument. Mine was flute. And so grew up, went to a wonderful music camp in Massachusetts, Greenwood Music Camp. And my older siblings had all been there before me. And I'll tell you, it was like, this is what I want. This is how I want to communicate with people. Hold my flute up, look in the eye at the oboist or the clarinetist or the violinist. And now we play. You know, there's. There was something about the musical communication that. That was so natural to me. And so compared to using words, said [00:10:55] Speaker B: the singer, this is going to get interesting. [00:10:57] Speaker C: Okay, you got a point there. I do like words. But as a teenager, that was a very beautiful way to be among my peers. And I went to a high school. I went to Putney School, which had a phenomenal music. It was a small school, like 120 kids, and there was an orchestra with 60. You know, half the school was involved. No, that's. I'm exaggerating. But. And I played a Mozart flute concerto there my senior year in high school. [00:11:28] Speaker A: Wow. [00:11:29] Speaker C: So I was quite accomplished, proficient on the flute. And when I went to Pomona College in California as a music major, my dad was a professor there. So I'd grown up in the town and going. I knew perfectly well what a fabulous music program it was. And we did Gilbert and Sullivan, and I sang the lead each year I was there. And I played flute in the orchestra. I played piccolo in the band. [00:11:57] Speaker B: Okay, so we see singing start up, though, because you're singing absolutely well. [00:12:01] Speaker C: And I had sung and we did family singing. We loved singing rounds. And. No, we were always singing. [00:12:09] Speaker B: But what got you to pivot, so drop the flutes? [00:12:12] Speaker C: Well, I did recitals in both flute and voice at Pomona. And I honestly can say my life is going to be in music. I know that. Even if it meant being the secretary in a music department. I wanted to be surrounded by music, by music and musicians. But I thought, okay, flute, I've kind of done the major solo stuff. I didn't want to be in an orchestra. And I thought, voice. Languages. I love languages. I'll never run out of repertoire. I'll never run out of repertoire. [00:12:55] Speaker B: Yeah, that's correct. [00:12:56] Speaker C: So why not go that route? And so I, I ended up going to. Yeah. New England Conservatory. And, and I never, I wasn't involved in the opera department in graduate school either. Just was never. I, I don't know. I. You sit around a lot doing opera. It's just a whole different rhythm. [00:13:21] Speaker B: And because your career got. So you finished your training at the New England Conservancy, you're what, and you're at that point a soprano? [00:13:28] Speaker C: I was. I'm definitely a soprano. [00:13:29] Speaker B: Yeah. So you're a soprano and you got your career going in New York, right? [00:13:33] Speaker C: I did. I, I, I took three years at the conservatory and I ended up coming to New York and immediately jumping into doing freelance choral work. And I tell you that it was a complete thrill to be paid to do something that I love doing. [00:13:52] Speaker B: Right. So the kind of pieces you would do would be choral work. What else were you seeing? [00:13:57] Speaker C: Well, church jobs. Any choral. Yeah, choral work. And then I joined the faculty at the 3rd Street Music School settlement and was teaching little kids. Did my own little choir stuff there, but we started a chamber group with faculty there called the 3rd Street Chamber Players. And so I started doing performing in New York. And in those days, the New York Times listed every single concert that was going on with personnel and repertoire. So my name got out There just doing these concerts. And then this is my theory, anyway, you'd see, okay, Lucy Shelton, soprano, and then another group, a new music group, said, oh, she's doing that. Maybe we ask her to do something with us. Very grassroots. You know, you do a good job. [00:14:49] Speaker B: You hear people, hear colleagues. [00:14:50] Speaker C: Another job, you get another job. Your colleagues recommend you, the composers that you do. Because I was right at this point. [00:14:58] Speaker B: Roughly how old are you? We're going to go back to that kronos. [00:15:00] Speaker C: I was 23, 4. [00:15:04] Speaker B: Okay. [00:15:04] Speaker C: So I'm a very slow. I mean, I. I was 35 when I won the vocal award Naumburg, IN. In 1980. [00:15:15] Speaker B: Okay. [00:15:15] Speaker C: I was at the limit of their age group. [00:15:19] Speaker B: After 35, you couldn't win that award. [00:15:21] Speaker C: That's right. You couldn't apply. [00:15:23] Speaker B: Yeah. Let's kind of push the age issue here, as we say, which is, at what age do people start to sort of, oh, she's that old and wonderful. [00:15:30] Speaker C: You mean, and as a negative. [00:15:33] Speaker B: As a soprano. Yeah. Particularly as a soprano. [00:15:35] Speaker C: Well, I'll tell you, there's just a huge difference between being an opera singer and just being me. A singer of such a variety of repertoire and repertoire that challenges me, challenges a voice. The opera you're trying to do, that concentrated sound that will carry in the biggest spaces, by the way, across La Scala. I must say that for my Met debut, I am miked because I. I'm not using my voice in the traditional operatic sense. The opera singers, their voices don't last as long as. Well, that's sort of a weird thing to say, but I don't think many are singing after age of 60. Women, especially men, can go longer because somehow a man's voice mature, that sort of gruffness. [00:16:34] Speaker B: Yeah. They all become baritones in the end. [00:16:36] Speaker C: Yeah. And it's a permissible. It's a quality that works in the character. Whereas a female voice, which tends to get a wobble. [00:16:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:44] Speaker C: Isn't appreciated. [00:16:46] Speaker B: But so what? But in the world of being a singer, what I'm hearing you say, there's a bit more of a sustainability to a singer, a female singer's career potentially, than a man. [00:16:57] Speaker C: No, I don't think so. [00:16:59] Speaker B: Oh, really? Okay. [00:17:00] Speaker C: Wait a minute, wait a minute. Maybe I'm confused. [00:17:02] Speaker B: What you're asking for a non opera singer. [00:17:05] Speaker C: Oh, non opera singer. [00:17:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:06] Speaker C: Well, for instance, there's a Broadway singer. I'm about to go hear her. What is her name? Marion May. I should look up the name. She's 96 and she's still singing. [00:17:16] Speaker B: Really? [00:17:17] Speaker C: I'M going to go here in a week or so. [00:17:19] Speaker B: Okay. [00:17:20] Speaker C: But I mean, she uses a microphone, right? And folk singers, it's possible to. There certainly are people who. Women who are singing still, and. And men who are singing, but not in the operatic field, which is this. [00:17:36] Speaker B: This. Exactly. So how have you, as you've entered your seventh, now eighth decade, how has your singing skills changed, your singing abilities changed, and how have you therefore changed things to fit them? [00:17:50] Speaker C: I mean, I don't have the range I used to have. So changing it is partly knowing what repertoire to do, you know, that I can't do the sparkly. I mean, I used to easily sing up to high Cs. I did a piece that went up to high F, so on and so forth. But. So it's a matter of choosing, being smart about the repertoire you do. And I have started taking lessons again. I did maybe three, four years ago. I. I started singing, and that's. I'm not a very technically oriented singer. I kind of feel that the music taught me how to sing, rather than the. What the music required me to do, made me develop ways of singing it. [00:18:37] Speaker B: There's this method that you're using in Innocence called shrugstemme. Let's explain that. [00:18:42] Speaker C: Okay. Well, basically, it's storytelling. And we all use our voices when we're telling a story to the little kids in our families. Oh, no. And it's. It's pitched, but not, you know, not sustained with vibrato. [00:19:04] Speaker A: It's right. [00:19:04] Speaker C: Oh, oh, oh. It's a stroking. I mean, and there's nothing that hurts you doing it. Although operatic singers would not think it was a good idea because it's just so different from what they've been told over all of their. [00:19:24] Speaker B: It's from the German sprechtum. Oh. [00:19:27] Speaker C: The actual word just means speech. Speech. Stimme. Voice. Speech. Voice. [00:19:33] Speaker B: Yeah, speech, voice. And so that's something that sometimes it's spresch. [00:19:37] Speaker C: Gesang. Speech, sing. [00:19:40] Speaker B: And that's also another modification, opportunity for someone, as they age as a singer, to be able to still continue to participate in singing with sprechte. [00:19:50] Speaker C: Yeah, But I don't think any opera singer would say, okay, now I'm going to start doing sprechting. [00:19:56] Speaker B: Well, this is your strength because you never claimed to be an opera singer. [00:19:59] Speaker C: Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. It's all in the nomenclature. [00:20:05] Speaker B: Exactly. What are some other ways that you have noticed that. Either that you've changed your approach to being a musician in terms of saying who you collaborate with, the pieces you take on et cetera. [00:20:15] Speaker C: I don't feel like that much has changed. I mean, I have. I'm not as busy as I used to be. I mean, I. I used to send out. No, I used to send out postcards and, you know, I'd have like five things every month that I was doing. And I, you know, I sang with orchestra as I sang with chamber groups. I went on my. One of my very first gigs was actually doing early music with the New York Pro Musica. Went to Corfu in Greece to do a ancient opera that was kind of fun. And I also toured with the wonderful group Waverly Consort. And that was early music. [00:20:56] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I want to focus on one piece that you did not that long ago, which was Lucidity. [00:21:03] Speaker C: That was not that long ago at all. A piece by Laura Kaminsky that was written for me. [00:21:12] Speaker B: Let's talk about lucidity. It's a very interesting piece. Why don't you go ahead and give this sort of pressy of what the storyline. [00:21:17] Speaker C: Okay. It's about a retired voice teacher or singer. And she was a voice teacher. She also was a composer, but nobody really knew that. And that's sort of the women composer issue that Laura Kaminsky wanted to bring forth. And she is taken care of by her adopted son and she is beginning to get dementia and need taking care of and forgetting things. A former student of hers is actually. Has chose to become a doctor rather than carry on with music. Is doing a study on music and memory. So. [00:21:59] Speaker B: So it's a story of a person living with dementia who is a singer, a former singer, a former singer and one of her students. Former students, who is now a neurologist, is studying the role of music in memory. [00:22:14] Speaker C: That's right. And a piece of music by Schubert, shepherd on the Rock. And they actually used my recording of it in the. In the opera is from. [00:22:22] Speaker B: It's from the 1980s. The early recording. Yes. [00:22:24] Speaker C: Is what brings this character Lily, brings her out of her stupor and she actually could remember how it goes and it brightens her. Music is. We all know music is something that stays with you. [00:22:43] Speaker B: So this is a very interesting both art meets life piece because it's a piece written for you about a piece that you performed in the 80s that were then singing in your later years while playing the role of a person living with dementia. What was that like? [00:23:02] Speaker C: It was wonderful. It was wonderful. And I did request of the composer and you know that I be able to hold my music. I'm not so good at memory anymore. So I was Always looking at scores which fit with the character and I could see my. So I wasn't having to put it all in my memory. So that was a little cheat. [00:23:29] Speaker B: Interesting. [00:23:30] Speaker C: Which probably other people who do the show and it has been done by other people don't need to do that. They just do it from memory. [00:23:37] Speaker B: If I may, Lucy, this is a very interesting convergence of where art really meets life, which is you're playing a person with dementia and because of the challenges of memorizing a score at your age. And I'm right there with you on this. [00:23:51] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:23:51] Speaker B: You used a prop, a support for your memory, namely the written score, which was okay because you were playing a person living with dementia. [00:24:01] Speaker C: That's right. It just, it wrapped around. It was perfect. And I, I had. I put the various scenes in different scores, so I was not always looking at the same score. I had a lot of variety. [00:24:13] Speaker B: So that's fascinating. [00:24:15] Speaker C: Whites of strong peace. And yeah. [00:24:18] Speaker B: When you and I talked earlier in our conversation, you remarked to me, music enlivens us, brings us to clarity. Can you talk about that a bit? [00:24:27] Speaker C: I mean, in my life, when I don't have a music project, I'm quite a dull person. So for me, literally, music is sort of my lifeblood energy. Having a project, figuring out a complicated score, that just gets my juices going and I'm fascinated. I had a great time with this Sariaho opera that I just sang last night, making my pitch charts, and this is something we probably don't need to get into, but my study of the actual pitches in every role and sort of discovering how clever the composer, getting into the thinking of the composer, the choices that she made. And over the years I've done this with all sorts of really gnarly impo. Well, I developed the method because of a score that had over two octave range and had seven ninths. I mean, huge leaps and no key signature. So to make sense of it, I developed a kind of neat system. And I mean, I'll. I'll probably be doing that till the day I'm. I'm disappearing. I mean that it's. Rather than knitting, you know, pulling, pulling pictures around and looking at how they're. Because, you know, there are only 12 pitches, right? There are only 12 pitches. But think of all the music that's been composed over how many centuries? [00:26:03] Speaker B: An infinite variety. [00:26:04] Speaker C: Infinite variety. Infinite. And singers, I do not have perfect pitch, but I do all this complicated contemporary stuff and it's always new. Even though we just have 12 pitches. [00:26:18] Speaker B: It's mind Blowing if ever I've talked to someone who reaffirms the view. In our beginning is our end, it's you. In your beginning was music. And frankly, with you telling me that it's your lifeblood. In your end is the end of music, perhaps. Yeah. [00:26:33] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:26:34] Speaker B: Lucy, I really enjoyed this conversation. Congratulations on your Met debut at the age of 82. I trust it's all been going well. Let's make a goal, actually. Let's. It would be great to get lucidity here in Philadelphia. Let's set that as a goal. [00:26:47] Speaker C: That would be wonderful. Hey, that's a wonderful idea. Yeah. [00:26:51] Speaker B: Brilliant. All right. Don't break a leg, because I want you to succeed on. [00:26:55] Speaker C: I already broke a leg when I was in high school, so I've done that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. This has been a pleasure. [00:27:02] Speaker B: You're so welcome. [00:27:11] Speaker A: Thanks for that conversation, Jason. That was really intriguing, and I enjoyed learning more about Lucy's full body of work and how she's managed to keep it going. But one thing I wanted to ask you before we jump into some more specifics about this is the idea of focusing on music. We talk about art a lot in the age of aging and at the Penn Memory Center. But what connections do you see between the music and the mind? [00:27:33] Speaker B: Well, music is experience, meaning. It is one of the couple of artistic forms where when you're engaged in listening, you are entirely focused on it and enjoying it, specifically to the diseases of aging that we care about, particularly the diseases that cause dementia. Music has emerged as a very useful art form because it has two spectacular qualities. One, it kind of doesn't require narrative. In other words, you can enjoy music in the moment and not get terribly worried about swept up in the narrative. True, there are certainly some musical pieces where there's a narrative at stake, but you can sort of surrender and not bother about the narrative and enjoy the music. And the second is kind of the neuroscience of music. Namely, despite having profound impairments in speech, language perception, there's an interesting phenomena that we see that individuals will retain the capacity to pick up music, clearly show emotional engagement with it, and even participate in it, even when, for example, skills in spoken language are profoundly degraded. [00:28:37] Speaker A: Yeah. And one of the things that Jake and I have talked about in previous episodes is how working here has inspired us to make different changes to our exercise and diet habits. And we had once spoken about. Jake has taken up guitar lessons since starting to work here, and I've revisited playing the piano once again. But I want to jump to opera A little bit. Because in the time that we've worked together, you've become an opera fan. [00:29:00] Speaker B: I have. [00:29:00] Speaker A: No, that you were when I started here. [00:29:02] Speaker B: No, but. And much like your piano, Jake's guitar, et cetera, I think we're doing it not simply because we think it might be good for our brain, but because we enjoy it. Having said that, I think it's also good for the brain. And, yes, you're right. I have become an opera fan. Someone who utterly used to just completely dismiss opera. And the story is amusing, which is, of course, my husband and I purchased a new car. It had an updated audio system, Namely, it had Sirius XM satellite radio, which included, at the time, though no longer there, Met Opera Radio. And I used to put Met Opera Radio on as a way to kind of torture him in the car. And I suddenly found myself not just doing it to torture him, but to enjoy. And truly, the rest is history. And as I mentioned earlier, my friends Alan and Judy further got me engaged in opera. I think one of the points I'm bringing up is I'm become, as I get older, much more aware of how tastes change. And we should be open to that. And I think one of the great things about aging is just that is suddenly tastes change. I'll give you one example that doesn't do with music. Once upon a time, when I drink coffee, I couldn't get enough sugar in it. Now, the idea of sugar and coffee is, well, unpalatable, to say the least. [00:30:10] Speaker A: So we were talking about adding different instruments and appreciation of music. But I'd like to revisit the style of singing that Lucy has. You talked about it in the interview. A little bit, but it was fascinating, and I just kind of. [00:30:23] Speaker B: Could you rehash that a little bit stretched, Emma? [00:30:25] Speaker A: Yeah, Sprechtema. I could have done a little more. [00:30:27] Speaker B: It is a style that she uses for this opera innocence. And as she shows and displays it during our conversation, it's a way of sort of spoken singing. She's sort of taking on or exploiting the melodic quality, the prosody that is in all of our voices. I'm using it now to really emphasize what I'm trying to tell you. And it's one of many techniques that she's willing to use to still continue to be a singer, because Sprechtimme is a way that allows her to sing without having to occupy a full range, et cetera. Obviously, it's not the only way that she sings. And indeed, she still is singing Albeita as she talks in our Interview. She's made adjustments to her career as a singer in terms of what pieces she takes on her range. And I think in particular, I was just really moved at her talking about how, you know, I have the libretto with me to be able to kind of refer to it and how helpful that was when she was performing. Lucidity. [00:31:19] Speaker A: Yeah, It's a lot of. A lot of points of accessibility in this, and we didn't really talk about it quite so bluntly in your interview, but I think the more we talk about in here, it can be taken in as just another art form and a way to perform. But really what we're talking about is making opera, making stage performance accessible, regardless of cognition and age development. [00:31:43] Speaker B: Yeah. And abilities. And, you know, I mean, as she pointed out, especially for soprano, things change with age. [00:31:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:48] Speaker B: You know, and many sopranos simply have to retire because, as she points out, the range and quality of the voice changes. You know, males tend to be able to sort of just go down another octave and whatnot. And people seem to admire that. I think what I found inspiring about her story is there's kind of two myths, if you will, that surround aging. One myth is just slow, inevitable, chipping away, decline. The other myth is kind of like the unicorn and rainbows counter response to that. No, Aging is a time of endless growth and opportunity and possibility. And I think both are. Are kind of almost pornographic exaggerations that. And I think Lucy shows what. What the truth about aging is, which is it's a sort of a wonderful dialogue of resistance and accommodation. There's growth and there's decay at the same time. And she sort of embraces both. And I really give her credit for that. And that's why I found her story so inspiring. [00:32:41] Speaker A: You know, it reminds me of the one program that we're partners on, the Community Voices Choir. The program is not run by the Penn Memory Center. It's a collaboration between our team and the Curtis Institute, the Salvation Army Croc center on Opera Philadelphia. And this is a group that welcomes adults of all ages and levels of cognition to come and sing with professional and training singers. And what I found notable about their last performance that I attended is they did a really nice balance of having these young professional or trainees in singing perform with the older adults. And they didn't wash them out. They were accompanying them. And I think what it did is it empowered the adults to be louder and more powerful in how they were approaching the music. It allowed them to take on a greater repertoire than they would have been comfortable with. And at first glance, my gut reaction was, well, let them sing. And the second was, we've made an environment for these adults to really be comfortable and continue to grow and expand. And it was really, it was kind of heartwarming to see. [00:33:39] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I feel this the same when I take my ballet class is I'm oftentimes frankly the more senior person in the room. And, you know, one could argue, don't you feel kind of humiliated around the younger folks? And the answer is no. I feel, I think just what you described, a certain amount of inspiration. I think one of the things that's very much part of the culture of ballet and dance is very much a non judgmental culture, in part because it's so damn hard that we do not criticize each other, et cetera. Yeah, yeah, that's great. [00:34:06] Speaker A: So this conversation is. Is just the latest of this long line of intersections between your work and arts and sometimes opera specifically. We had the song by Mahler, which was a partnership with the Philadelphia Chamber Music Society, we'll have Unraveled, which we reported on last season at the FTD conference in Philadelphia this fall. Is this just because you love opera, or do you actually see a lot of value at the intersection here of music and science? [00:34:32] Speaker B: I see a lot of value intersection between the arts and science, particularly. We're talking about living with an aging brain, whether that's in aging without disease or aging along with disease. And, you know, it's because. Just let's get back to why we care about these diseases. Because they transform, otherwise affect the mind. And the ability to have experience is one of the core aspects of having a mind. And the arts are one of our key ways that we have experiences of the world. [00:34:57] Speaker A: And it's a great way to represent the experience of patients and caregivers, but also to educate those who may just want to hear an opera or see a play. [00:35:05] Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I wrote an essay recently from my Stat column in Neurotransmissions on surrealism. And so the takeaways were that surrealism as an aesthetic both helps me understand what it's like to be a person living with dementia, but it also offers an artistic means for people with dementia and people otherwise experiencing it to sort of artistically make sense of, aesthetically make sense of it. [00:35:27] Speaker A: Now, in your conversation, you mentioned optimistically bringing lucidity to Philadelphia someday. Is that. Is that a serious project or wishful thinking? [00:35:35] Speaker B: That's a serious project. So, listeners, those of you who are producers or have access to producers, we're quite keen to talk about a collaboration that would allow us to have Lucidity performed here in Philadelphia. Absolutely. Yeah. [00:35:46] Speaker A: All right, great. Well, I'm looking forward to it. We'll certainly see people at the FTD conference when we have unraveled coming in and then when we find that producer calling into our show at the Lucidity performance. So thank you so much, Jason, for this conversation and for joining us today. [00:35:59] Speaker B: Thanks Terry. As always, it's a total pleasure. [00:36:01] Speaker A: We'll link more about Lucy and her work in the show notes, but for now, here is Lucy Shelton performing Shepherd on the Rock. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Age of Aging. This show is made possible by generous support from the Michael Nadoff Communications Hub Fund and our sponsors, Rothkoff Law Group and the Franklin Institute. The Age of Aging is a PEN Memory center production hosted by myself and Jake Johnson. Contributors include Dalia El Said, Jason Karlewish, Emily Largent, and Allison Lynn. Thanks to my co host this episode, Jason Karlewish, and our guest Lucy Shelton. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing to the podcast, leaving us a review or giving us a like. These types of things really help others find the show, and if you know someone who might be interested in these conversations, share this episode with them. We also love hearing from our listeners. If you'd like to reach out, our contact information is in the show notes.