Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: And I'm driving along the highway. Oh, look, there's a hitchhiker out there. Oh, I'll pull over.
And I say to you, where are you going, young man?
[00:00:17] Speaker A: Where are you going? Back home. Back home.
Where's home? Where's home? Yeah.
[00:00:24] Speaker B: Broomall.
[00:00:26] Speaker C: Delaware.
[00:00:28] Speaker A: So you've gone to Brumal. Brumal, yeah.
Okay, well, I can take you. Only part of the way. I'm going to King of Prussia.
[00:00:39] Speaker D: Oh, King of Prussia.
[00:00:41] Speaker A: Yeah, a lot of those stores and everything is good. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Be there for a long time.
[00:00:49] Speaker A: You want to go to King of Prussia?
[00:00:53] Speaker A: Not really.
[00:00:54] Speaker E: It's very busy there.
[00:01:09] Speaker E: Welcome to the Age of Aging, a show about living well with an aging brain. Produced by the Penn Memory center and the Michael Nadoff Communications Hub. I'm Jake Johnson.
[00:01:20] Speaker B: And I'm Terrence Casey. Jake, what was that audio at the beginning? That's not normally how we start our episodes.
[00:01:27] Speaker E: Yeah, yeah, I know. It's a break from what we usually do. That clip was from a recent cognitive comedy class which the Penn Memory center puts on.
[00:01:38] Speaker B: Oh, I love cognitive comedy. This is a program we've had for years now, but it used to be fully in person, but I think since the pandemic, it's been zoom based.
[00:01:47] Speaker E: Yep, yep. So it's open to anybody. And it's a improv class, essentially.
[00:01:52] Speaker B: I'm not a. I haven't done improv in the past. I've seen comedy shows in the past, but this. This is different from that, right?
[00:02:01] Speaker E: Yeah. So I think people, when they're going to a comedy class, they're maybe thinking that somebody will be performing for them or maybe they'll be writing material. But improv is very interesting because it's. It's really, from my experience, you're kind of doing these different interactive activities and.
[00:02:19] Speaker D: You are actually creating the comedy.
[00:02:22] Speaker E: So when, with this recent class that I just went to, I was very much, you know, a part of it. The clip that I played was a game called Hitchhiker where the teacher, Gene Haskell, is pretending to be driving a car and picking up hitchhikers on the side of the road. And you kind of have to, in the moment, talk about where you're going, you know, who you are, as she's.
[00:02:48] Speaker D: Kind of asking you different questions.
[00:02:50] Speaker E: So it's really about all being in the moment and just reacting to the person that you're interacting with.
[00:02:57] Speaker B: Is this, you know, just a sort of a way to pass the time? Is this just meant to be sort of good humor?
[00:03:03] Speaker E: Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. This episode started off as kind of a look into creative care.
And slowly, as I worked on it, improv became more and more involved in the episode. Because improv, as I've learned, is very related to caregiving, which might seem kind of strange to people. Like, how is comedy related to caregiving? One is usually not very light hearted or fun. But, you know, improv, as people have now explained to me, is a lot about being in the moment, making your partner look good. It's a lot about collaboration and working with somebody, which is very true for a person with dementia and their caregiver. You have to really stay in the.
[00:03:50] Speaker D: Moment and react and be present.
[00:03:52] Speaker E: So cognitive comedy is really an exercise in that.
[00:03:57] Speaker B: And so what are we expecting today? Are we learning just about improv or did you maintain some of the that creative care that you mentioned earlier?
[00:04:06] Speaker E: So this episode will start with an interview with Anne Basting, who has been on the podcast a few times about using creative care in caring for people with dementia. And then we transition a little bit. We'll hear from a few improv teachers and educators when it comes to interacting with people with dementia or caring for people with dementia and using improv techniques in caring for people with dementia, as well as a few researchers that are actually looking into how improv can be used in caregiving. And then we'll actually talk to the creator of Cognitive Comedy at the Penn Memory Center, Leah Lawler, about her experience, why she does this work, and why.
[00:04:44] Speaker D: She still works with older populations teaching improv.
[00:04:48] Speaker B: All right, well, let's take a listen. But first a word from our sponsor.
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[00:05:19] Speaker D: As I've learned from my conversations with caregivers over the past few years, caring for a person with dementia is a constant stream of decision making.
Some decisions are difficult but more straightforward, while others can feel almost impossible and have to happen within only a few seconds.
One of the toughest decisions caregivers have to make is how to respond to a person with dementia when they believe something that isn't true.
[00:05:47] Speaker G: Especially now that my mom has Alzheimer's. I just give grace to caregivers, but both family and professional.
[00:05:54] Speaker D: You may recognize the voice of writer, artist, and elder advocate, Dr. Anne Basting.
Her work was featured heavily in our episode Arts on the Mind from season two. We spoke with her again to start season three in the episode what does Spring Smell like? And used her concept of the beautiful question throughout that season to end each episode.
[00:06:15] Speaker G: It's so hard to navigate and to know in the moment when. When you're in the thicket of emotion, how to respond to that moment.
So, you know, a really common one is, I want to go see my mother. Or the mentioning of the person's parent, right? And they're in their late 80s or 90s. Clearly that person is gone. Or if you're a adult child like myself, your mother might ask where her husband is. And the adult child who is childing, right, That's. You're not parenting your parent. I always say, you're childing your parent. You're being an adult child is grieving that loss.
It's painful.
[00:06:57] Speaker D: In the situation Dr. Basting described, caregivers often find themselves choosing between one of two responses.
[00:07:04] Speaker G: The root pathway is sort of along the tradition of reorientation.
Going to heal my mom by grounding her, in fact, right.
Dad's dead mom, which does not acknowledge the disease process, which is that every moment is new to that person and so that person will grieve in that moment, fresh. To me, it's a little piece of cruelty that. That you don't know you're getting drawn into sometimes. The other approach, which is you think it's going to allow you out of the difficulty of that moment with sort of a. I'm going to enact a therapy upon you, which is often called therapeutic lying, where I'm going to say, oh, Dad's at the store. He'll be back in a little bit. So it alleviates the conflict, but it's not grounded in an authentic relationship, because you know that's not true. I'll say a lot of people find great relief in the therapeutic lying.
It does, I think, do little bits of damage to you as the caregiver, knowing that you have to lie to this person. And it's really hard to do.
[00:08:17] Speaker D: Basting explained that there is a third option grounded in her methodology of creative care.
[00:08:24] Speaker G: What you're doing is exploring the meaning in the moment, right? Sort of taking a side step from truth or lying into creativity, imagination, where you can just say, I miss dad, too.
Tell me about dad. Tell me about how you met him.
Tell me about the meaning of dad. You're both exploring the moment and your emotions of the moment. So there's a real authentic, reciprocal care happening there. I like to always match it with turning it into something valuable.
So why don't you record the story? Why don't you write down the story?
[00:09:07] Speaker D: Creative Care is the title of Basting's 2020 book and what her nonprofit Time Slips teaches to caregivers and educators.
[00:09:17] Speaker G: Rather than an act of depletion, which is how we tend to think of caregiving. Like one person cares for another person, sort of emptying themselves into the other person. Creative care, productive. It makes something out of the relationship of care. It's when a person receiving care and a person providing care co create something new together that has value.
[00:09:46] Speaker E: And now a word from our sponsor, Rothkopf Law Group.
[00:09:50] Speaker H: Caring for an aging loved one isn't easy, but you don't have to do it alone. At Rothkof Law Group, we guide families throughout New Jersey and Pennsylvania along every stage of your aging journey.
Our team of elder care attorneys, care coordinators, public benefit specialists, and elder care advocates ensure your loved one's well being and your peace of mind. Rothkopf Law Group, your partner in elder care advocacy and senior care planning every step of the way. Visit rothkofflaw.com for more information.
That's R O-T-H K O F-F L A W.com.
[00:10:27] Speaker I: I was born outside of Chicago in a little town called and it's also like guess Karen's accent. So when I used to bartend, you know, every good theater professional also has bartended a waitress. I used to win money because people would go, where are you from? What's that accent?
[00:10:43] Speaker D: Karen Stobie had always been interested in performing but struggled to remember her lines.
[00:10:48] Speaker I: I realized I was a very, very bad at memorizing. And I thought, well, I'll go into directing theater. And so frustrated of wanting to be on stage but having a horrible memory. When I saw an audition, notice I was only 20 for a new improv group. I went and there was only like four other women. And I got it and I was really pretty crappy. But I got hired, I think just because back then it was kind of cute and I could do some physical comedy.
But man, I have learned so much from then.
[00:11:22] Speaker D: Stobie said it wasn't until her dad was diagnosed with Alzheimer's that she became more interested in healthcare.
[00:11:29] Speaker I: My dad was in the process of passing and I was sitting there kind of journaling in the room with him and we had music playing and it hit me literally then the parallels between caregiving and improvised because there's really no set. If you look up like rules of improv, you might find like del Close's just ideas you might find. Tina Fey says, these five things you might find this or that, but there's really none. But in caregiving, there's actually no roles either. And so what I did is I wrote down all of the ones that I thought applied to both sides. And I showed my husband, who I met doing improv, and I showed the director of an adult day center that has 50 people living with dementia, and they both thought. He thought I was doing an improv workshop, and she thought I was doing an Alzheimer workshop. So I went, I got something.
[00:12:24] Speaker D: Stoe began creating improv workshops for caregivers and older adults. She wrote a book and eventually began working with Ann Basting at Time Slips as a trainer. In the years after her dad's passing, Stobe's mom was also diagnosed with Alzheimer's. You actually may also recognize Stobie's voice because in 2014, she and her husband Mondi were featured in an episode of this American Life titled Magic Words about the way the two care for Stoby's mother using improv.
Stobe eventually founded her own organization with her husband called in the Moment, which provides improv training and education for caregivers.
Stobe said her three most essential recommendations for improv and caregiving are yes, and go with the flow and step into their world. Yes, and is probably the most recognizable to people as it is the most essential guideline of improv.
Always agree with your partner and continue to add to their world.
[00:13:23] Speaker I: Go with the flow is like, for instance, my mom was sitting at the bedroom table. My daughter, who was about 12 at the time, was sitting there listening to music and doing homework. And my mom goes, who is that? And Grace, the daughter, says, oh, that's the Beatles. My mom hits the pause there, says, oh, I dated them.
Not one, but them.
And you know, a 12 year old wants to let everybody know what they know is correct. And I turned and glanced and you could see Grace's face of like, mm, mm, I wanna say something so bad. But she didn't. She paused for a minute and then she says, well, what was that like?
Oh, it was crazy.
And so, I mean, where did she get that from?
Well, my older sisters that are 18 years older than me, 16 years, were very into the Beatles. They loved them, they wanted to marry them and date them. So there was some click of a. Of a memory in her life story that clicked into that. And then instead of going, no, grandma, you no way did you date them. It's not possible.
Grace just started this crazy, interesting conversation about, well, what was that like? Did the girls chase you? You know, and my mom just went with it, you know, and Grace went with it. And they were laughing and happy. And so the outcome would have been very different if she would have corrected her and did not go with the flow of conversation.
[00:14:59] Speaker D: Stobie's third recommendation, step into their world, she said, can be really difficult but incredibly important for family members because we.
[00:15:07] Speaker I: Want them to be our mom, our dad, our grandma, our husband.
And so we're trying to get them, oh, mom, you remember that. Come on. You made meatloaf every Friday night growing up. You know, the recipe.
That's us trying to pull them back.
And so if we just step into their world, no matter if we know if it's true or not, then the outcome is always better.
[00:15:33] Speaker D: Dr. Candice Kemp and Dr. Jennifer Kraft Morgan are researchers and longtime collaborators from the Gerontology Institute at Georgia State University.
[00:15:43] Speaker J: We had a project that just ended that was funded by the National Institute on Aging that was looking at meaningful engagement and quality of life for people living with dementia. And early on, we started to notice that promoting meaningful engagement and positive interactions tended to take place when people were using techniques that looked an awful lot like improv.
So we published some work that talked about four approaches. And the approaches are knowing the person, meeting people, where they're at, being in the moment, and viewing every encounter with a person living with dementia as an opportunity for engagement. And so those really parallel nicely with improv. And we recognize that a lot of people intuitively use those skills, but many people did not.
[00:16:37] Speaker D: Dr. Kemp had previously heard of Stobie and her husband's work from a conference they had held a session at.
She and Dr. Morgan decided that improv and caregiving would be the next area they explore in their research.
They were eventually introduced to improv actor and teacher Amanda Lee Williams.
[00:16:55] Speaker C: I heard Karen Stobie on this American Life, and my father had dementia, and I was then also in school to become a counselor.
And so I was like, I'm going to try this. And it worked like, because I'd already, I've been a performer and improviser like my whole adult life.
And so it really changed our relationship in a positive way.
[00:17:23] Speaker D: The resulting study, titled Improving Care through Improv Pilot Test Results of an Innovative Training Program for Care Partners of People Living with Dementia, held two hour group sessions weekly teaching caregivers how to Use improv in caring for Someone with dementia. The program was four weeks total with around 40 participants.
Here's Amanda Lee Williams again, like, the.
[00:17:46] Speaker C: First two weeks we spend just getting into that improv mindset, which I believe can be life changing in any area. Not to be like a crazy improv as a religion lady, but it's like very Buddhist in nature. It is about staying in the moment, connecting with people, being empathetic, making your partner look good. And it's all about a partnership.
And I think when they feel it and they get to do it and they practice just like just the skills of improv, it's much easier than to transfer it to what am I going to do with my person?
[00:18:23] Speaker D: The study found a reduction in caregiver stress and depression, and 100% of caregivers said they continued using the methods after the course was complete.
In terms of the exercises Lee Williams and other teachers guide the group through, there's the classic improv game zip, zap, Zop.
[00:18:41] Speaker C: Basically, there's three words, zip, zap, and Zop. And you're going to pass that, those three words in that order around a circle, and you sort of like, shoot it over to them, like energy.
So you're making eye contact. Obviously something you want to do with your care partner. You're sending energy. You've got to be ready. You got to be in the moment. You have to be focused.
And the discussion that we have, even after that first exercise, people are like, oh, my God, I see how this relates right away.
[00:19:11] Speaker D: Another improv technique the class teaches is to always clap and celebrate when someone messes up in an activity.
Here's Dr. Jennifer Kraft Morgan and Amanda Lee Williams.
[00:19:22] Speaker C: So, like, if somebody messes up in the circle, we all celebrate.
It's not a mess up, it's a success. And so I think it's. It jars us out of being in our head, you know, like, if they're going to give me a standing ovation because I, you know, didn't do this thing, or I felt like I was anxious in that moment, then it changes the calculus. You know, I. I talk a lot in any of my workshops just about kindness and empathy. That is inherent in improv, and that goes towards your partner, but also towards yourself.
Because if there's one thing that I know is, especially friends and family, care partners are very hard on themselves.
[00:20:05] Speaker D: Lee Williams and Dr. Kemp then gave me a little demonstration of one improv exercise they do in their classes called gift giving.
[00:20:13] Speaker C: Okay, so I'll start by giving Candace a gift. Let you just take that.
[00:20:20] Speaker H: Good.
[00:20:21] Speaker J: Thank you for this beautiful gift, Amanda.
Let me just unwrap it here.
Oh, my goodness.
It's a beautiful phone.
[00:20:33] Speaker C: Yes. I know that when you were younger, you always wanted a Razer flip phone when they were popular and you didn't get one for a variety of reasons, which I don't want to get into your personal life, but finally I have gotten a refurbished one for you. And. And now you can be the cool razor flip phone girl that you always wanted to be. And you can see it's in hot pink. I love it.
[00:20:58] Speaker J: It's hot pink, my favorite color.
And it's going to go perfectly with my new coat.
[00:21:06] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:21:06] Speaker C: I love that coat. Oh, I love it. Sequined head to toe. Sequins. Yes. Yes. That's so Candace. So, yeah, that. And that is gift giving. And that's all it is. But it is.
People love it, and I just loved it. And I don't. I do it all the time, and I still love it every time. So I, you know, don't know what she's going to say the gift is, but I am going to make it make sense.
[00:21:30] Speaker F: I always insist on this one warmup where you start singing a song. It's called Hot Seat.
[00:21:35] Speaker D: Leah Lawler is the creator of the Penn Memory Center's cognitive comedy class, which she put together right after performing in an improv group in college.
[00:21:44] Speaker F: Some song that's stuck in your head and then we all sing along. You support. Even if you don't really know the song. You at least, like, sway or make some sort of, you know, clap, and then whatever that song makes you think of. Someone starts a new song, I'm always impressed because they start singing and they get comfortable and it's like they all know every word and it's beautiful.
[00:22:05] Speaker D: Following her time at the Memory Center, Lawler began working at Saturday Night Live as an assistant editor. Even still, she continued teaching improv classes at elder care facilities.
[00:22:17] Speaker F: Hilariously, I actually did both at the same time. So I would be at an after party till, like, dawn and then sleep like, a couple hours and then drive to my jersey thing and be like, all right, let's do improv. When I have a class, whether it's a Saturday or Sunday, and I leave that class, it's like the most natural high ever. And then it just sets the whole rest of the week off on a good foot because it just gives you perspective and you just are in, like, a silly, fun mood and you learn so much. And I'll always work with that population if I can, or at least just maintain relationships because I'm still in touch with many of my students.
It's so funny because people are like, you are a saint working with them. I'm like, they're the coolest, funniest people I've ever met. First of all, they're all trying to set me up all the time with a nephew, a grandson, the guy that works at the building now who they all have a crush on. They're all always like, telling me, oh my God, you dropped weight or your hair looks amazing. Like, they just gas me up. They have references that not the average, like Millennial or Gen Z, Gen X, whatever person would have. And their updates are always like, heavy. Like, when we go around and get updates, I'm like, wow, I need to like, not worry about my little life. Like, I don't have big problems right now. But yet they have amazing attitudes. Like, really amazing attitudes.
[00:23:50] Speaker B: Thanks, Jake. I really enjoyed hearing that story, and it was great to hear Leah Lawler's voice again. It's been a long time since the, the founding of cognitive comedy back at the, the Penn Memory center, but I, I didn't really expect how much this, this episode was going to bring back some, some memories for me. And I know we've talked about in the past, but back when I was a kid, my, my grandmother had a stroke and had developed dementia. And one of the, the hardest elements for our family was when she forgot who people were, who her daughter was, my mother, grandkids, myself and my siblings. And I think we sort of inadvertently were trying some of, of these lessons, maybe without being quite so intentional about it.
She would sometimes talk to us as if we were long deceased relatives of hers and as and basting and talked about it could be pretty upsetting to try to correct her. And then sometimes we would just try to play along because it seemed easier. But truthfully, that became its own challenge.
There were moments of joy in there. The one story that we still tell fondly is hearing my grandmother whisper that we we needed to be quiet because she didn't want her mom to find out that she was smoking cigarettes and she must have been a young teenager or even earlier. I'm not sure in her mind when telling that story.
And I think in hindsight, if we could go back, we would have just asked a lot of questions about the adventures that we were on together in her mind and in her world.
[00:25:25] Speaker E: I haven't had this experience myself with a grandparent with dementia, but hearing Karen Stobee talk about how it can be difficult for family members to step into this person's world and ask questions and kind of be A part of their new reality because they want them to be their. Their parents or their sibling or their spouse. Again, that really resonated with me. And I could just imagine how difficult that would be to accept about somebody. But it also is like hearing other people's stories of it. Like someone that you just told about the smoking cigarettes is like, there's something so sweet about it too. The fact that this person is, you know, almost in a different stage of their life and is expressing that is such a rare opportunity in some ways.
[00:26:16] Speaker B: Well, and it's all. It's all in how we.
We frame our approach with this, right. When a child tells a fantastical story, you know, people kind of approach it from a position of joy.
In our household, we call them, wouldn't it be funny if stories. So as to encourage our kids to differentiate between this thing happened at school. And like, I had this thought of a funny story.
But anytime you get a group of friends together or get members of a family together, people are telling the stories that the older they get, the more fuzzy the details become. But it seems only in. In this unique position of dealing with a loved one with cognitive impairment that we see that as a problem instead of just an opportunity for joy. And I like that idea of framing these as opportunities to engage rather than mistakes to correct.
[00:27:12] Speaker E: Doing this episode was funny because when.
[00:27:15] Speaker D: I was in seventh grade, I remember.
[00:27:16] Speaker E: I took improv classes, or I didn't take improv classes. We had a theater class and we did improv exercises.
And I recently, as I've talked about before the past few years, I moved to Philly and I'd never been here before. And I started kind of just trying out different classes. And I thought, oh, improv, that's kind of, you know, I remember liking it in seventh grade, maybe, maybe I'm going to like it again. And so I took like an intro improv class. I only took one class.
But it is so much harder than you expect it to be because I think as adults, we're so not used to just playing. And I think that that is actually what improv is. It's like this letting go of being kind of embarrassed and putting yourself out there and even being funny. I think that's not really the point. It's not really to be funny. It's really co. Create something in the moment with somebody, and oftentimes that can become something that's funny. But we did some of these exercises, like celebrating when somebody messes up and it becomes a very accepting and kind environment very quickly. And it made me. It gave me a lot of respect for people who do this kind of work and who teach this, because doing that in the moment and fighting off the kind of nerves of being watched is.
[00:28:38] Speaker D: It's difficult.
[00:28:39] Speaker B: Well, so how do you get past that? How do you break through that barrier?
[00:28:43] Speaker E: Yeah, I mean, I think the more that you do it, the. The easier it gets. I mean, that's the sense I get from these improv teachers. I like when Amanda Lee Williams, who was one of the instructors in the episode, she was like, you know, not to get all, like, spiritual, like, improv as a religion thing, but it is being present and just kind of letting go of your ego in the moment. And that is not something that's easy to do, and I think takes a lot of. Of practice, but can be really freeing, I think, for a lot of people.
[00:29:16] Speaker B: So I have my takeaways, but my caregiving experience right now is for raising some young kids. And so I know how I'm going to approach things, of clapping for mistakes and sort of celebrating the process instead of worrying about the conclusion. I.
I like the idea of embracing their world instead of trying to force them to join me and mine. And I know on a personal level, I think I got to occasionally abandon the journalism background and the need for factual reporting and storytelling and find some joy in storytelling from both my parents, my sisters, and my kids, too. But what kind of practical takeaways do you think cognitive comedy, improv in general, what do you think they offer to caregivers of individuals living with cognitive impairment?
[00:30:11] Speaker E: My takeaways from the people I spoke to was that that improv offers a kind of different perspective on. On caregiving. And I think Ann Basting talks about this where she says that we often think about caregiving as kind of emptying yourself into somebody, and that her notion of creative care is this kind of collaborative process where we're making something together, we're creating meaning together.
I think that shift in perspective can relieve a lot of the stress of caregiving, where you feel like you always have to be on and remembering things for another person, which obviously you do in a lot of circumstances. But more being present with a person, accepting who they are, and having the interactions that you can with the person that is with you there in the moment, I think is a really nice perspective I want to take into my life with my friends and family, you know, literally being here and trying to focus on, you know, what are we talking about now and creating now.
[00:31:20] Speaker B: Well, it's a nice way to wrap it up. I think we'll have more information in the show notes about the program on Zoom, so people are interested in learning more about cognitive comedy. You know, please check it out in the notes and on our website.
And other than that, we'll have other resources listed there as well. If people are just interested in learning more about improv.
[00:31:40] Speaker E: Yep, definitely. If you're interested, check out the this American Life episode that features Karen Stobe and her husband.
[00:31:47] Speaker D: It's a.
[00:31:48] Speaker E: It's a great episode and super interesting, so we'll link that as well in the show notes.
[00:31:54] Speaker B: All right, thanks, Jake.
[00:31:55] Speaker E: All right, thanks, Terence.
[00:32:01] Speaker B: Thank you for listening to this episode of the Age of Aging. The show is made possible by generous support from the Michael Nadoff Communications Hub Fund and our sponsors, the TIAA Institute and Rothkoff Law Group. The Age of Aging is produced by the Penn Memory center in partnership with the Institute on Aging and the Penn FTD Center.
Our team includes Dalia Elsaid, Jake Johnson, Jason Karlewish, and myself, Terrence Casey. Contributors include Nicolette Calcavecchia, Emily Largent, Alison Lynn, and Megan Sharp.
[00:32:32] Speaker E: Special thanks this episode to Gene Haskell.
[00:32:34] Speaker D: And the members of her cognitive comedy class, Barry and Ray, for letting me.
[00:32:39] Speaker E: Be a part of their class and record.
[00:32:42] Speaker D: Also, Special thanks to Dr. Ann Basting, Karen Stobee, Dr. Candace Kemp, Dr. Jennifer Kraft Morgan, Amanda Lee Williams, and Leah Lawler.
[00:32:54] Speaker E: If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing to the podcast, leaving a review or giving us a like. These types of things really help others find the show, and if you know someone who might be interested in these conversations, share this episode with them.
We also love hearing hearing from our listeners. If you'd like to reach out, our contact information is in the show Notes.
